THE RETARDED POINTS SYSTEM NEEDS FIXING IF WE ARE GOING TO GET OUT OF ALPHA

Yes. This is another long-ass thread about the retarded game design of the points system AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THE FUCK TO START.

There is SOOOO much wrong with this system and over the course of a long period of time I'm going to break it down and suggest to how to fix all of its flaws.

This is how I think I'm going to break it down:

A) How you obtain and earn points through the game.

B) How points you obtain are boring and displayed stupidly

C) How pointless the point system really is (Clever word play but FUCK YOU FOR THIS)

Before I start, I know I probably will screw up somewhere and will be completely wrong with what actually takes place in the game but just correct me if I'm wrong

Let's begin...
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HOW YOU OBTAIN AND EARN POINTS THROUGH THE GAME

"How do you get marine points." The same fucking question I keep getting from new players. Let me explain everything that is wrong with this question.

YOUR NEW PLAYERS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY FEEL LIKE THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHING SOMETHING OR ELSE THEY WILL NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOUR GAME.

If a new player has to ask an experienced player how to become the next level in the game, you fucked up with your decision making somewhere down the line.

How do you obtain points? You A) Get marine points by killing the Thing as marine and You B) Get Thing points by killing Marines as Thing. Now ask yourself one simple question.

WHEN THE FUCK DO NEW PLAYERS EVER SUCCESSFULLY KILL THE THING/MARINES? Immediate design flaw. The new players are not going to progress at all. You aren't progressing? Then there's no point in playing, you are achieving nothing. No point in playing? Lets go play something else. The game manages to fuck it all up and turn new players away by learning curves already, there's no way you can afford to make them feel like they suck and will never go anywhere with the game.

So great, our way of obtaining points is a little retarded for new players. Not that big a deal, right? WRONG. BECAUSE EVEN IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCED, THE THING MIGHT DIE BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO SEE IT. THANKS FOR WASTING YOUR TIME JOINING THE GAME. YOU ACHIEVED NOTHING.

The Thing [Revival] is missing progression that other arcade games have. And sorry [Revival], you're too complex a game to pull off the good old shoot and run mechanic pulled off by Call of Duty or Marine Arena from the SC2 arcade.

The current point system gives you no incentive to do anything. You get dropped in some map and are told: "Look, to achieve stuff you need to go kill this one thing that is hiding. If you happen to kill the wrong marine don't worry. Just keep shooting until you find the right marine and then kill Thing for points." There is no incentive to leave your camping spot, there is no incentive to repair buildings other than to counter their critical mode effects, there is no incentive to heal allies other than them being extra meat shields, THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO PROLONG YOUR LIFE BECAUSE YOU ONLY GET POINTS THROUGH KILLING THE STUPID FUCKING THING SO YOU MISE WELL CHARGE IN THERE AND FIGHT.

So how do we fix the way you earn points and progress through the game? Well, I'm going to be going into a little bit more detail after I've gone through A) B) and C), but basically:

-Gain points for playing and actually joining the game
-Gain points for surviving
-Gain points for repairing buildings
-Gain points for healing teammates
-Gain points for doing damage
-Gain points for other things
-Lose points for killing the wrong marine

Don't worry about there 'being too many points' I'll come to that later.

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HOW THE POINTS YOU OBTAIN ARE BORING AND DISPLAYED STUPIDLY

"Wow! I just soloed the Thing! That just got me another 146 points that I can add onto my 22, 326 points!" YOU WILL NEVER EVER HEAR THAT SAYING. YOU WILL ALSO NEVER HEAR SOMETHING LIKE THIS: "OMG, I'm soooo close to <milestone> here!" BECAUSE THERE ARE NO FUCKING MILESTONES IN THIS GAME. AGAIN, YOUR LIFE IS MEANINGLESS AND YOU ACHIEVE NOTHING.

Here's just another flaw in the system. First of all, lets see what's in the game. Well, you can see what level you are by looking at your level/points. Wait, what? Did I hear that right? Level/points. If they are essentially the same thing, only levels are smaller, more condensed numbers, THEN WHY DO THEY EXIST? ASK VICBOY.

Oh, and did you think reaching level 10 would guarantee you the next rank up from a cadet? WELL TOO BAD. BECAUSE I'VE PLAYED FOR 2-3 YEARS AND I DON'T KNOW WHICH LEVEL YOU RANK UP ON AND I'VE JUST BEEN INFORMED IT IS IN FACT NOT ON LEVEL 10 ITS ON SOME RANDOM NUMBER LIKE 17. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!? This is such a stupid design flaw. And it doesn't end there. Your level? The one you grinded out playing the game repeatedly and achieving almost nothing? WELL NOONE USES THE LEVEL SYSTEM. Why!?!??! Because for some reason A) Points are larger on the Lobby UI B) NOONE KNOWS THE FUCKING SCALE FOR HOW MANY POINTS EQUAL A LEVEL. WHY DOES IT SCALE UPWARDS? YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW CLOSE YOU ARE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

So levels are meaningless. You don't know how far away you are from the next one, or which levels unlock which ranks so you mise well go off of points because that's the kind of progression "EXP" you get from the game while playing (Thing points and marine points). But guess where points bring us back to? WATCHING GRASS GROW. You're points end up getting into the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands if you play enough, and every fucking game you earn like 50 marine points which does NOTHING TO YOUR OVERALL POINTS OF 50, 000. YOU CAN BARELY TELL THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. THAT'S BAD DESIGN.

I could go on and on with this section but its so bad its really not worth pointing out every little problem with the system. Here's the changes on a basic level until I can elaborate on them later after I'm finished with A) B) C).

-ACHIEVE REWARDS LIKE RANKS ON ACTUAL EVEN LEVELS LIKE 10, 20, 30 NOT 14, 23, 71!!
-Levels need to be big, displayed as the primary progression unit (instead of points)
-Points need to be hidden from players (Thingpoints and Marinepoints)
-New section to replace Points section: "<NumberOfPoints> points away from level <level>!" (LevelRequirementPoints - Total Thing Points = PointsNeededToLevelUp)
-When you level up,big box appears after thing dies/game ends stating "YOU HAVE REACHED LEVEL 14!" "You have unlocked: General Rank! Click OK to continue."

I think that covers it for this section that I want to talk about. Next:
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HOW POINTLESS THE POINTS SYSTEM REALLY IS

This one has been around for eons. This section is the reason I take pity on people like FRK with 300k points.

Let me just clarify quickly: After playing for so long, getting my Nova pictureso very very long ago, I literally have 0 clue how you get Vicpoints. I haven't used vicpoints since I got the only picture I care about, and not even knowing how to work them now is in itself is a design flaw because its part of progression and I should always be aware of my progression. But that's not the main point.

The main point is: The points you earn through all of these games, those levels to grind out time after time do LITERALLY FUCKING JACK SHIT. Seriously!?!?! Like the ranks were a good idea, I give you credit for that but WHAT THE FLIPPING FUCK DO THING POINTS DO? ALLOW YOU TO GET PRO OPT? TO GET MORE THING POINTS? WHAT!?!?!?

So what is this section really about?
YOUR PROGRESSION NEEDS TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING!!!!

When I earn marine levels, I want to be achieving more than levels. I want to be using those levels somehow. How should we be using levels? Unlocking, receiving something! I not only want to feel like a total badass for being a higher level than everyone else but I want to have flashy stuff and cool options that really prove it.

Lets back up. Here are my issues with the VicOS system. First of all, its just another set of progression units that complicate the game and are completely unnecessary unit considering levels can be used to accomplish the same thing. (if player has unlocked Level10 is set to true, unlock this)

Clarification, Now: Well, if you play the game and manage to deal damage to the thing as marines, or marines as the Thing, then you get points which contribute to your level which don't do anything but are there anyway to simplify the points system. You also get VicPoints from <insert how to get them> that you can spend on things within the VicOS located on the bottom left, above your map. There are only portraits and sayings (which noone uses or reads) but you can have them!
What it should be: Well, if you play the game and do various things as a marine or the Thing, you level up. Leveling up unlocks things that you can view/select in the VicOS menu located above your map on the bottom left of your screen. You can unlock portraits at certain levels, unlock different lighting options, skins and other cool customization options! You unlock things based on which one you play more, so if you level up as a marine, you will unlock marine things while if you level up your Thing, you will unlock cool Thing options!

Example of unlockable ability: Similar to saying 'Meow', when you have unlocked this text phrase and type "Scream" it triggers a map-wide scream of someone dying horribly. Something subtle, creepy, yet downright cool.

I'm almost drained of all my anger towards this topic, but I still have to finish so bear with me.

This section needs:

-Levels replace VicPoints as unlockables (requirements for using) instead of currency.
-Levels will unlock things at specific, easy levels like every 10, or every 5 or something like that. No 4's and 7's and 3's and shit.
-Thing vs. Marine have separate markets.
-More better, specialized, customization options
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I'm trying something different this time. Instead of doing my usual and posting all of the reasons why I'm going to wait a bit and let this all turn over in your head. You start figuring out why it would be good, vs the bad and post below. I'll update this post soon with all of my reasons for the changes.

And if you are wondering what the overall purpose besides improving the points system when it comes to this thread, its to get this game outta fucking alpha. Its been too long for an alpha. Fixing the fundamentals of the game is the only way we are going anywhere near the top.

Now fuck you all, I'm done typing.

+1

Not my area, keeping out of it.

It's so fucking long. Let me get cozied up first. Heating up a cup of hot choco and grabbing a blanket.

I play thing to hear people bitch and whine that "zaks such a noobz0rz" while I rape them as thing. The last time I cared about thing points was when MiniThor was getting thing non-stop and completely, utterly failing and giving general Thing opters a bad name. The issue isn't as much one about progression. It's an issue of "Here you fucking go! Here's a few pages of walls of text, hope you understood everything! Good luck have fu- oh you're dead, too bad so sad try again next time."

Yes, some of the progression shit needs to change. For example, actions that should give points:

• Healing yourself, 20 points
  
• Healing another marine, 50 points
  
• Sat your ass at the bacon beacon for 10 seconds like a good fucking dog, 5 points
  
• Repaired 10% of a tower, 5 points per 10%, 5 points for bringing it to full
  
• Seriously, I'm sitting on my ass coming up with random ideas, you can too
  
• Teamkilled a fellow marine, -100 points (Get to -500 points, your model is automatically a cow)
  

And for thing:

• Dealt a hit to a marine, 10 points
  
• Did 10% damage to a tower, 5 points
  
• Tossed then locked in succession once in the game, 20 points, *Achievement* ding ding ding ding ding
  
• Stayed hidden as a marine in the presence of 3 or more other marines, 5 points per 10 seconds
  
• Successfully (*cough*, reeferfist) used a medpack while in marine form, 25 points
  

Just imagine the different actions you can think of if it *wasn't* a drunk motherfucker giving you these ideas. Now imagine I said those things, and give me credit for them.

But, besides the progression needing to change, you also need to have a better actual tutorial that makes marines go through the acts of locking a door, tossing a molotov at a thing attacking some AI marines to the side, throwing a grenade and practicing that skill, and repair. If you finish the tutorial, your in-game marine takes the form of a war pig. Otherwise, your in-game marine is the regular noob marine, and that's that.

Finally, VicPoints do need to go away, and so do the reminder messages. Portraits (and better models, let's be frank, I couldn't give a flying fuck about the portraits but I would actually want to unlock different models for my marine) should be unlocked by doing things in the game, and at the beginning of the game, give each player an individual reminder of how to unlock the next portrait / model. For example, players that just start out the game without doing the tutorial will see "War Pig model: Unlock by completing tutorial", and make that their objective in the top-left corner. Players that have played the tutorial will then see "Medic model: Unlock by surviving until the dropship arrives", "Marauder model: Unlock by defeating thing either on the station or on the evac ship". Similar messages and unlockables can appear for thing, like "Zergling model: Kill 3 marines", "Speedling model: Kill all marines before dropship arrives", or "Hydralisk model: Throw, lock, then kill all within 10 seconds".

It could even be as simple as "Tank model: Become a General" for marines or "Ultralisk model: Become Thing level 50", whatever. But this will give players some goals to try for.

Vicboy wrote:It's so fucking long. Let me get cozied up first. Heating up a cup of hot choco and grabbing a blanket.

:> If your cold, I hear man is the warmest place to hide :>

zakhennahr2 wrote:Teamkilled a fellow marine, -100 points (Get to -500 points, your model is automatically a cow)

Damm straight!

Im not feeling the other stuff though. Probe covered that pretty good I think.

I deleted my puppy too :<

EDIT TO THE EDIT DOWN BELLOW: All are your cow are belong to us!
Yeah well on the last forums I suggested a penalty system (Turned down like all of my ideas) and I think if vic were to ever re work the point system that he can add some type of moral system as well or something that people can use to identify tkers without admins turning troll and gamethrowers into cows which seems to be working just fine and an FYI on where that came from was through some online surfing on teaching habits, basically by using and creating a way other people can identify I wrong, illegitimate, or whatever the hell kind of situation you want people to caution themselves on, that there be an indicator of some kind. Pretty freaking simple logic and it has been effective, well.. with the regulars at least.

TL;DR

Gimme skins and I'll be happy.

I'm really lazy to post all the reasons. I'll get around to it soon and then even provide a checklist so that Vic/Willu can just do the stuff in the checklist without thinking too hard about everything. (Besides initial evaluation and analysis.)

SKINS ALL AROUND

OK, so here we go. I'm going to try and be the most transparent I can and provide a simple, step by step process so that Vicboy and Willu have no reason to feel overwhelmed. 

Regardless, they SHOULD feel overwhelmed because this is a big task but one that needs to happen for this game to be top quality. 

Please Note: I cleaned up this thread because it was filled with useless posts, just so you know.
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I'm going to do a quick summary of each section and then list the solutions. Vic's Progress Checklist will be at the bottom.
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HOW YOU OBTAIN AND EARN POINTS IN THE GAME


The biggest issue with the points system is the way it works with the game's design. The game has a bigger learning curve than most, resulting in new players dying very easily. The points system of current only provides points to players that successfully kill Marines/Thing, meaning if you die easily you will achieve little to no points. 

Furthermore, your pointlessness as a noob without gaining points is only enhanced by the realization that you may not even see the Thing in a game. The Thing could die before you see it, meaning not only did you wait in the lobby, wait in the loading screen, and wait to find the thing in the goddamned game but you ALSO get to do it all over again after achieving absolutely nothing.

Overall new players and fairly experienced players alike will gain nothing and waste their time attempting to get points in a futile attempt to accomplish something, anything.


The reworking of the points system also allows us to promote things like staying until the end of the game, where more players will then be able to start a new lobby because everyone stays in one big clump, instead of stragglers getting bored waiting and leaving. We can ALSO promote deception because if we give a large penalty to hitting the wrong marine, people will have more incentive to trust others instead of shooting randomly at every unknown target.


How do we fix it? Provide more, dynamic, ways for players to earn points and give them something else to do to advance their career in the game.


You should gain points for the following:

For every 5 health points you heal a teammate for: +1 marine points

For every 50%HP you repair a building for: +1 marine points


For every game you stay until the end for: +10 marine points


For every 1 minute you survive: +1 marine points


For every point of health naturally regenerated by yourself: 0.1 marine points

For every 2 point of health you damage a friendly marine for: -1 marine points
(No penalty if they initiated the attack)

Upon death: -5 marine points


For every 15 points of health you damage the Thing for: +1 marine points


Reviving a friendly marine: +3 marine points


If there are any more you can think of, please reply and post them and I will add them here.

Now, many people will argue that too many or too little points can be gained etc. However, because we are completely reworking the leveling system to accommodate these changes, we can customize and compensate for the amount of points introduced.
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HOW THE POINTS YOU OBTAIN ARE BORING AND THE DISPLAY OF EVERYTHING IS STUPD


Be realistic. The levels system is overshadowed by the points system due to how prominently it is displayed. Not only that, but no one even knows when the next level is, what points are required for it, or what it unlocks. This entire section needs redoing for easier understanding, more engaging progression, and worthwhile unlocks.

I'm being flat out and telling you what is required to happen to the UI. We need to emphasize the unlocking and progression of a character and we need to emphasize levels because they are the ones with more weight to them because they are condensed.


Lobby Playercard should look like this:


     /----------\
     | PICTURE |
     \----------/


MARINE   LEVEL: 36
THING     LEVEL: 12 
EXP to Marine 37: 273 (+91)
EXP to Thing   13: 42

There are then two options for EXP display on what you earned in a game. One is more complex and harder for Vic and Willu to make, but is overall much, MUCH better and supports other things within the market. The first is to simply put the number of EXP earned in brackets with a plus sign, as shown and underlined on line 3 of the playercard stats. That is the easy version. The harder version involves having a big box pop up explaining your statistics for the round. Here's an example below. You could even incorporate both for a transparent, consistent game.


/----------------------------------------------------------------\
|                                                               VicOS        |
|   MISSION RESULTS                                             |
|   Lieutenant [Vicboy] Probe                                |
|   Marine EXP gained: 91                                         | 
|   EXP until Marine Level 37: 273                            |
|   Unlocked: 41 VicPoints, Grenade 1st Slot     OK   |
\----------------------------------------------------------------/

Of course Marine would be replaced with Thing in the event that this game was played as the Thing, and the rank and name would be appropriate to you. The Unlocked tab potentially could just not appear if you didn't unlock anything.

I think the pop up box would really flesh out the game and make it seem a lot more polished.

Now, I don't actually know which section to put this in so I'm going to do it here. Leveling up should be predictable. New Marine Ranks will need to be predictable. Here's what I think it should be:

Cadet       :       0
Private      :       5
Specialist  :      10

Corporal   :       15

Sergeant  :       20

Officer       :       25

Lieutenant:       30

Captain     :       35

Major         :       40

Colonol      :       45

General     :        50



Its so simple and easy to explain that you don't even need to put in an explanation within the game for it. Players can simply be like "When do you rankup" and the other person can just be like "Every 5 levels". Its amazingly simple.
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MAKING THE POINTS SYSTEM NOT POINTLESS


For the benefit of the developers, I'm going to try and incorporate Vicpoints into the system so that they don't have to rework that as well. Despite Vicpoints still cluttering things throughout the game, I'm going to try to use them. I don't currently know how you actually get Vicpoints. That's an issue on its own. So we have 2 choices. We can either A) Start telling people how you get them (Another tutorial fuck me) or B) Rework how you get them.

I say we rework it. Regardless, this is the one thing I'm leaving entirely up to Vic and Willu to figure out. You guys fuck around with Vicpoints and their system. I'm not doing that. However, I AM here to focus on what they actually do.


Currently, there is nothing to unlock besides portraits. That's fucking bullshit right there because it means everything you do does absolutely jack shit for you. However, Perp proposed an idea that quickly became a more interesting and interactive experience. He suggested that we be able to customize the loadout upon which we enter the game with. This allows for enticing progression as you can unlock you favourite items and inventory slots for use. It allows you to try different playstyles ranging from a medic to heavy firepower depending on the items you select. Here is the current system upon which we have worked out:

Low Tier: 
Medkits
Radio

Medium Tier:
Molotov
Wrench

High Tier:
Grenade

Level 5 Marine:    Unlock First Inventory Space (Low Tier), Unlock Medkit Purchasing
Level 10 Marine:  Unlock Radio purchasing
Level 15 Marine:  Unlock First Inventory Space (Medium Tier), Unlock Molotov Purchasing
Level 20 Marine:  Unlock Wrench Purchasing
Level 25 Marine:  Unlock First inventory Space (High Tier), Unlock Grenade Purchasing
Level 30 Marine:  Unlock Second Inventory Space (Low Tier)
Level 35 Marine:  Unlock Second Inventory Space (Medium Tier)
Level 40 Marine:    Unlock Second Inventory Space (High Tier)

Level 45 Marine:    Unlock Third Inventory Space (Low Tier)

Level 50 Marine:    Unlock Third Inventory Space (Medium Tier)

Level 55 Marine:    Unlock Third Inventory Space (High Tier)

Level 60 Marine:    Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (Low Tier)

Level 65 Marine:    Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (Medium Tier)

Level 70 Marine:    Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (High Tier)



Market Costs:
Medkit 50 VP
Radio 100 VP
Molotov 125 VP
Wrench 150VP
Grenade 400VP

Items purchased in the market can be stored in your "Gear" which is essentially a backpack that holds all of your items. You can then, before/after a game move items from your "Gear" into your starting slots. The next game you play will then have the items. Items that you spawn with, upon use, cannot be reused. 


After this initial system has been added, future support for other things is extremely easy. We can then easily support things like unlockable sound triggers and such.
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I'm going to let this sit here for a little while. If you see something you think should change, something OP, UP, doesn't match up, imbalanced anything, please post it below and then we can discuss and change it accordingly. 




After a period of time has passed and everything seems to check out from the feedback, I'll post the checklist for Vic and Willu. That way, they don't have to dream everything up. If possible, I'll even try to include terribly photoshopped pictures to portray what I'm talking about. We'll see. Regardless, what do you think of the changes?

before you guys get ahead of yourself

yes the COD style of upgrades is nice, but your going to have a hard time keeping players around if you give them 0 shit to start with until they've play 200 games.

Reefer wrote:before you guys get ahead of yourself

yes the COD style of upgrades is nice, but your going to have a hard time keeping players around if you give them 0 shit to start with until they've play 200 games.

COD style of upgrades? I don't recall COD having any sort of system like that though I could be wrong. The level system needs reworking in terms of EXP. For example, while it might be 200 points to get to level 2 right now, it will be changed to something like 100 in the future. Due to the nature of time in which you gain points increasing, the time to level up will need to decrease.

that would be cool if you could incorporate COD into the game cause i love call of duty YOU SHOULD ADD STICKY GRENADES AND CONCUSSION GRENADES KAY THANX

Truthfully, the entire game will need an overhaul to get it to the front-page. In the meantime, Here's an altered suggestion regarding the 'Loadout' idea.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Let's introduce IP (Item Points). Essentially with each level you obtain additional IP to spend on your loadout, rather than Vicpoints. Vicpoints can later be added to buy additional items mid-game (Maybe?).

If we are working with Probe's new leveling system, then every 5 levels (Every Rank-Up) you would gain an additional 5 IP.


Medkit: 5IP
Radio:  10IP
Molotov 10IP
Wrench  15IP
Grenade 15IP
Goggles  20IP
Body Armor 25 IP
Flame Thrower 30IP

This system would allow Generals to obtain a total of three Grenades and a Medkit, and Level 60 players to obtain 4 grenades. The beauty of this system is that you can add near infinite items, and it gives most all high levels additional goals (Short of FRKy). You would add a 'Random supply drop' that'd rarely drop new items, but overall remove the random item spawning.

BUT WAIT PERP YOU'RE A DUMBASS, IF YOU'RE IN A LOBBY WITH 14 GENERALS THEN THE THING NOW HAS TO DODGE 42 GRENADES!!!!!!!

...Although that is a possibility, be it unlikely, we need to add some new abilities to the thing and rapidly increase his out of combat regen. (Such as after 30 seconds out of combat he regains 15HPs). Anyways, this is not a 'Deadset Idea', it's subject to change and critique, but I think it's an overall good outline.

_______________________________________________________________________
On a seperate issue, VP should be used to buy portraits (Which the VP points cost should be altered and some portraits should be INSANELY expensive), Skins, and additional item drops mid-game (Maybe)