Make the game more fun

Right now the game is very boring and routinely.

It follows exact same thing every game:
1. Thing alternates between Generator and Comms
2. Marines always split trying to fix and waste items fighting
3. They die

^In this case if the timer is anything above 5 minutes and zakhennahr is Thing, the ending is expected.

OR

1. Noob thing insta-dies

Obviously there's something wrong. Some players have no chance in winning while players like zakhennahr seem to win every game. There's an unequal balance of Thing's power between nooblets and veterans.

I think this means we should bring back the Thing health being reduced the higher the Thing points. This will keep the game challenging for the higher-up players while still keeping the game accessible by nooblets.

We should target this specifically to zakhennahr as he is currently the top Thing. Any players who collect too much Thing points and feel that they can no longer win can consult Vic to decrease their points.

Also, I think it might be a good idea to consider simply removing the Generator. It's almost a formula now where Thing simply alternates between Generator and Comms. It forces marines to move in a very predictable fashion and there is really no choice. If you give up the Comms, Thing has the ultimate advantage and if Generator is dead, your chances of dying is drastically increased as fighting back is much harder especially if the Thing is skilled.

This might as well be same as marines camping only that it's Thing's version in a sense that it's a guaranteed winning strategy eliminating variation and fun.

We should remove the trend of adding all the buildings in the world and only leave the Comms and Booster.

I think the game was much more dynamic when there was no evacuation and no buildings. The marines had to face the Thing and it was simply a matter of finding out who. There was no external help they were fucked.

This made items like radios much more powerful and important to gameplay as finding out the real enemy was actually important. This in turn made deception a powerful tool that created a huge variety in Thing's efficiency. The more deceptive you could be, the better you were.

The micro-oriented Thing playing style was initially considered 'cheap'. The systematic leaving door to 1 hit and trying to separate marines 1 by 1 to kill them was a boring play. It was same all the time and stressed on game's balance. You needed no thinking it was computer-like massacre. It was frowned upon until it became the dominating style.

The very roots of The Thing is deception and fear of not knowing friend or foe. Latest gameplays have none of that and the main fault is in the map design that discourages deception. For instance, the addition of blood and corpses murder deception. Marines can go their merry way checking the corpses and blood to see that there was massacre. In the past, the true terror lied in entering a suspiciously clean room with 1 marine and wondering if he was friendly or not.

Another map design that fucks with deception is control. Control is the worst addition to this game. It was simply introduced to prevent Thing staying as a marine forever. However, this could have been handled by simply adding blood-test (like the movie) and preventing new players from being able to opt in as the Thing. If deceptive play was difficult/underused already, control just took a giant shit in it and shoved it in its mouth.

In that sense, if the game must stay micro-oriented for the current better Thing players' pleasure, I think you should just change the game's name as it is no longer 'The Thing'. That's not what the movie was about.

Pandemonium wrote:Right now the game is very boring and routinely.

It follows exact same thing every game:
1. Thing alternates between Generator and Comms
2. Marines always split trying to fix and waste items fighting
3. They die

^In this case if the timer is anything above 5 minutes and zakhennahr is Thing, the ending is expected.

OR

1. Noob thing insta-dies

Obviously there's something wrong. Some players have no chance in winning while players like zakhennahr seem to win every game. There's an unequal balance of Thing's power between nooblets and veterans.

I think this means we should bring back the Thing health being reduced the higher the Thing points. This will keep the game challenging for the higher-up players while still keeping the game accessible by nooblets.

We should target this specifically to zakhennahr as he is currently the top Thing. Any players who collect too much Thing points and feel that they can no longer win can consult Vic to decrease their points.

Also, I think it might be a good idea to consider simply removing the Generator. It's almost a formula now where Thing simply alternates between Generator and Comms. It forces marines to move in a very predictable fashion and there is really no choice. If you give up the Comms, Thing has the ultimate advantage and if Generator is dead, your chances of dying is drastically increased as fighting back is much harder especially if the Thing is skilled.

This might as well be same as marines camping only that it's Thing's version in a sense that it's a guaranteed winning strategy eliminating variation and fun.

We should remove the trend of adding all the buildings in the world and only leave the Comms and Booster.

I think the game was much more dynamic when there was no evacuation and no buildings. The marines had to face the Thing and it was simply a matter of finding out who. There was no external help they were fucked.

This made items like radios much more powerful and important to gameplay as finding out the real enemy was actually important. This in turn made deception a powerful tool that created a huge variety in Thing's efficiency. The more deceptive you could be, the better you were.

The micro-oriented Thing playing style was initially considered 'cheap'. The systematic leaving door to 1 hit and trying to separate marines 1 by 1 to kill them was a boring play. It was same all the time and stressed on game's balance. You needed no thinking it was computer-like massacre. It was frowned upon until it became the dominating style.

The very roots of The Thing is deception and fear of not knowing friend or foe. Latest gameplays have none of that and the main fault is in the map design that discourages deception. For instance, the addition of blood and corpses murder deception. Marines can go their merry way checking the corpses and blood to see that there was massacre. In the past, the true terror lied in entering a suspiciously clean room with 1 marine and wondering if he was friendly or not.

Another map design that fucks with deception is control. Control is the worst addition to this game. It was simply introduced to prevent Thing staying as a marine forever. However, this could have been handled by simply adding blood-test (like the movie) and preventing new players from being able to opt in as the Thing. If deceptive play was difficult/underused already, control just took a giant shit in it and shoved it in its mouth.

In that sense, if the game must stay micro-oriented for the current better Thing players' pleasure, I think you should just change the game's name as it is no longer 'The Thing'. That's not what the movie was about.

Actually, I'd argue the exact opposite. The buildings actually give marines a sense of something to do and thus they are much less likely to camp. While camping, its wayyyyy too easy to tell which marines are dead and which are alive. Movement from the marines allows the locking and seperating of marines allowing for potential deception. The buildings, besides giving further purpose to the game are supposed to provide incentive for marines to split up. That was the whole thing with Willu's polarity storms or my oxygen building. 

I agree with you though that the Thing just running around in Thing mode killing everyone isn't the ideal gameplay. 

But 'the true terror'? There was zero difference terror in entering a clean room vs a dirty one with one marine in it. You kill him either way and he either locks, stims, or both. Noone trusts anyone ever. Thus, the reason we want to focus on separating marines. We want it so that seeing a marine alone is a normal thing, that you should be suspicious of but not overzealous as to kill him. 

Now, I can guarantee a penalty system would work well for killing the wrong marine. The points system, when I update my post on it will elaborate upon how to fix that portion.

I agree that control fucks with the game. However, Willu is already making changes (as far as I'm aware) where the more marines you are near, the slower control diminishes. 

Let me make a case:

Pretend that marines are usually split up into very small groups.


A) Easier to lie to people saying "Light Blue is Thing" because they won't know better.
B) Easier to not get immediately shot upon being alone. (If you were actually in a group and one of those guys was thing, you would be alone)
C) More active building activity
D) Consumption would be much easier to rid of bodies
E) Tactical approaches would be more common, and the radio activity and importance would bolster

I honestly can't see a downside. The only thing is for small groups to be a normal, the Thing would probably need a nerf in max health.

So how do we achieve small groups that move around? Well, the buildings succeeded in making marines move. Now we just need something to separate them. 

The overall purpose of The Thing is to rely on what you do and do not know. At the moment, it isn't hard to figure out things and thus you know everything. But its not the buildings. 

You didn't even make sense saying the game was 'more dynamic' without buildings. You're telling me that finding the thing and killing it and having to repair buildings that have different uses for different situations is less dynamic than running around a station waiting for the Thing to reveal himself? I call bullshit.

I gotta end this post because I'm forgetting where I'm going with all of this.

Basically, consume and burn took a step back from having easy corpse detection for everyone and it makes the game more dynamic because of the buffs it gives to each side. 

Your post barely emphasizes the importance of knowledge in this game. While your intentions seem agreeable, the way you think the game should be changing to accomplish those goals I cannot agree with. We don't need to send the game back to the stone age, we need a method of preventing knowledge between players while maintaining a dynamic atmosphere.

throw a grenade at your teammates if its boring. that always spices things up

Buidings = More decisions for both Marines and Thing = dynamic.

Remember this situation?

Nothing = All players camp in a room = Chaos out of boredom / Thing gets chased by 13 Marines.

Now that I think about it... Thing used to be a very slow tank... relying on burrow, rape rooms and transformation. I might revert to those elements, just to test it.

"But 'the true terror'? There was zero difference terror in entering a clean room vs a dirty one with one marine in it."

Explain how there is no difference.

When you see blood stains and one lone marine standing in a pile of corpses, it takes no thinking to realize that that lone marine is the Thing.

However, what happens when you just lost a friend and you try to follow him? You enter a room and there he stands alone. It has been several minutes and you can't quite tell if he's truly friendly or he's an impostor. There's no sign of struggle anywhere such as blood or corpses. Some games you decide to trust him and you get eaten while some games you shoot him but turns out he was a friendly and you get eaten as you are now alone. That's the nature of paranoia in this game that existed but is now destroyed.

"You kill him either way and he either locks, stims, or both. Noone trusts anyone ever."

You speak with authority as if all players play like you. No, not all players play like you. That is not to say that they DO trust everyone and DONT shoot people on sight. Rather, my point is that blood-stains and corpses SUPPORT this kind of action by making it blatantly clear who's the Thing.

If it was made more ambiguous and they sometimes lose games because they mistreated a friendly for a foe, players might have a second-thought before shooting.

"You didn't even make sense saying the game was 'more dynamic' without buildings."

Of course because you never played without one. I'm referring to time when there was no evacuation and the game still worked perfectly fine if not better. Tell me how it's any different gameplay now. Marines either camp Comms or Generator and simply move to fix it. It just made the game easier to win as Thing not anymore exciting or fun to play as marine.

The change we needed wasn't buildings but something exciting for marines to do in order to hunt the Thing. Are you telling me fixing buildings is so fun and dynamic? I find it boring as fuck. If your dynamic is simply sitting with a wrench and seeing Thing kill everyone around you every time marines move to fix, I think you should check

"You're telling me that finding the thing and killing it and having to repair buildings that have different uses for different situations is less dynamic than running around a station waiting for the Thing to reveal himself?"

Obviously buildings have been worked on much longer than the option of chasing and killing the Thing as marines. Therefore, CURRENTLY no shit it's less dynamic, boring, and dull. However, my point is that it has better potential and is something we should consider testing. If it doesn't work out, we just head towards the direction we are already going. All I am saying is that deception play could use one last shot.

Vicboy wrote:Buidings = More decisions for both Marines and Thing = dynamic.

Remember this situation?

Nothing = All players camp in a room = Chaos out of boredom / Thing gets chased by 13 Marines.

Here is something that's wrong.

Buildings = Doesn't provide option for marines to kill the Thing but rather make it necessary for their survival.

What does this mean? Marines are always on the passive side. Thing is always the aggressor who decides when it wants to fight. There needs to be an option for marines to be aggressors.

Currently, you have no way to catch the Thing. It's the most evasive fuck. We need an option where instead of something like a evac, as time goes on, marines can get more powerful or unlock ways to track and eliminate the Thing.

Hence, Thing is still against a clock but when that clock ends, instead of deux ex machina, marines get to finish the job personally adding more fun and depth into playing as the marine.

Also, the whole concept of evac is flawed in terms of your goal. You DONT WANT the Thing to leave the station and infest others. Therefore, instead of crashing the evac after it arrives, wouldn't simply destroying Comms and making the evac not arrive be your goal?

Nothing = All players camp in a room => O2

Chaos out of boredom = I'd argue more entertaining than current setup

Thing gets chased by 13 Marines = This is not to say that the current buildings are BAD and MUST BE REMOVED. Simply that maybe instead of just adding a new building every few patches, we can think in a new direction. That is unless your goal is adding 20 new structures.

Pandemonium wrote:"But 'the true terror'? There was zero difference terror in entering a clean room vs a dirty one with one marine in it."

Explain how there is no difference.

When you see blood stains and one lone marine standing in a pile of corpses, it takes no thinking to realize that that lone marine is the Thing.

However, what happens when you just lost a friend and you try to follow him? You enter a room and there he stands alone. It has been several minutes and you can't quite tell if he's truly friendly or he's an impostor. There's no sign of struggle anywhere such as blood or corpses. Some games you decide to trust him and you lose while some games you shoot him but turns out he was a friendly so you lose. That's the nature of paranoia in this game that existed but is now destroyed.

"You kill him either way and he either locks, stims, or both. Noone trusts anyone ever."

You speak with authority as if all players play like you. No, not all players play like you. That is not to say that they DO trust everyone and DONT shoot people on sight. Rather, my point is that blood-stains and corpses SUPPORT this kind of action by making it blatantly clear who's the Thing.

If it was made more ambiguous and they sometimes lose games because they mistreated a friendly for a foe, players might have a second-thought before shooting.

"You didn't even make sense saying the game was 'more dynamic' without buildings."

Of course because you never played without one. I'm referring to time when there was no evacuation and the game still worked perfectly fine if not better. Tell me how it's any different gameplay now. Marines either camp Comms or Generator and simply move to fix it. It just made the game easier to win as Thing not anymore exciting or fun to play as marine.

The change we needed wasn't buildings but something exciting for marines to do in order to hunt the Thing. Are you telling me fixing buildings is so fun and dynamic? I find it boring as fuck. If your dynamic is simply sitting with a wrench and seeing Thing kill everyone around you every time marines move to fix, I think you should check

"You're telling me that finding the thing and killing it and having to repair buildings that have different uses for different situations is less dynamic than running around a station waiting for the Thing to reveal himself?"

Obviously buildings have been worked on much longer than the option of chasing and killing the Thing as marines. Therefore, CURRENTLY no shit it's less dynamic, boring, and dull. However, my point is that it has better potential and is something we should consider testing. If it doesn't work out, we just head towards the direction we are already going. All I am saying is that deception play could use one last shot.

You speak with authority as if all players play like you. No, not all players play like you. That is not to say that they DO trust everyone and DONT shoot people on sight. Rather, my point is that blood-stains and corpses SUPPORT this kind of action by making it blatantly clear who's the Thing. 


I wasn't voicing how I play. The average player at the moment will immediately shoot any marine that hasn't been in their group the last little while, assuming they realize he hasn't. Thus the need for less knowledge on the marines side.

Of course because you never played without one. I'm referring to time when there was no evacuation and the game still worked perfectly fine if not better.

To be fair, I did play for about a month before it was added (possibly longer, just can't remember.) And by game worked perfectly fine, you must mean it WORKED fine. It was boring as fuck though for those of us who couldn't solo the Thing at that time because all you did was sit in a room camping, waiting to die. You didn't give a shit if your friend died unless it meant you could die from it. At least with the buildings, there's a small element of A) Something to actually do B) Decision making C) Teamwork


The most fun I've had in the game has come from buildings. Have you ever been in a group of 3 and used radios to communicate and use teamwork to repair buildings strategically by splitting up all over the map? That's the fun portion of the game for me. Not sitting in a room waiting to kill the Thing whenever he decides to show up. Not to mention that if someone dies, that's one less person to help repair comms/gen etc.  marines side. Even noobs understand the buildings after a few games and can be extremely helpful with them. How would you feel if you were a noob, cast into a room and told to wait for the Thing to come kill you. Noobs can at least understand that the burning building needs to be repaired.

Obviously buildings have been worked on much longer than the option of chasing and killing the Thing as marines. Therefore, CURRENTLY no shit it's less dynamic, boring, and dull. However, my point is that it has better potential and is something we should consider testing. If it doesn't work out, we just head towards the direction we are already going. 


What are you even talking about? You seem to think there is a fine line between A) Deception, B) Buildings, C) Hunting down thing. In the game's current state you are still hunting down the Thing. In fact, its extremely similar considering everyone is still in one big group (same as what you want). The only difference is you are moving to complete and objective sometimes. Even then, the time spent on making something work means absolutely nothing. Look at the points system. Its a ruin of terrible design but the points system has been going forever.


All I am saying is that deception play could use one last shot.


*facepalm* So your method is the only way for deception to work? As far as I remember, there was ZERO deception before buildings existed. I could go on and on about burning and consuming and how that plays a role in deception by taking a step back to previous times, but have you ever actually tried to be deceptive? How many strategies could you name? Here's one example of how buildings promote deception: Repairing them. If you repair a building while next door to a group of marines, they are extremely likely to trust you because you just did what they do all game. They subconsciously register you as a friend (unless they know that your color is dead or something)


Edit: You will no longer find a "lone marine standing in a pile of corpses" because Consume and burn. Which brings the marine closer to full health (if not complete full health) making it look like it wasn't in a fight. (deception)

Pandemonium wrote:

Vicboy wrote:Buidings = More decisions for both Marines and Thing = dynamic.

Remember this situation?

Nothing = All players camp in a room = Chaos out of boredom / Thing gets chased by 13 Marines.

Thing gets chased by 13 Marines = This is not to say that the current buildings are BAD and MUST BE REMOVED. Simply that maybe instead of just adding a new building every few patches, we can think in a new direction. That is unless your goal is adding 20 new structures.

Well actually, the point of the whole oxygen idea was to A) yes, make it so marines spread out so that they actively search for the Thing instead of staying safe in one big group and B) replace FRK building cuz its absolutely terrible. It contributes nothing to the game's atmosphere, the purpose. Its just there. Replacing one structure with another, not adding, fixing.

Ive missed your bold fonts pande <333333333

ReeferFist wrote:Ive missed your bold fonts pande <333333333

That's because bold fonts are admin abuse.

"*facepalm* So your method is the only way for deception to work? As far as I remember, there was ZERO deception before buildings existed."

'As far as you remember' meaning only a month before buildings were introduced. I don't think you have the experience nor the authority to speak on this one. When buildings didn't exist, radio played a much more important role as players realized that if they camped forever, the Thing will simply refuse to show up. By splitting up into usually two groups each with radio, you could bait out the Thing which again gives marines active actions instead of passive one where you wait for buildings to die.

Also, there was element of distrust on the radio. Was the other side truly allies who survived? Or was it Thing that just finished his meal lying to you?

Are you telling me this happens any more? What? Players fix buildings for deception? How often did that happen? In the past I've seen radio plays more frequently than deception being used now which proves a point that there was something different in the past that allowed players to achieve deception.

I don't see why you are coming so hostile at this topic. Maybe YOU don't like deception? Maybe you just like the micro-oriented play and there's nothing wrong with that you don't have to want to bite my dick off for every word I say.

"...but have you ever actually tried to be deceptive?"

Yes, and I sucked hard. That's why I admired the deceptive Things and found micro-oriented Thing to be 'cheap'. It was a skill that was more difficult to master making the game more interesting.

"Edit: You will no longer find a "lone marine standing in a pile of corpses" because Consume and burn. Which brings the marine closer to full health (if not complete full health) making it look like it wasn't in a fight. (deception)"

*facepalm. This makes me realize that you are missing the whole point of the deception that comes from lack of dirty rooms.

You see you DONT understand what blood and corpses mean. In the past, Thing could literally murder a group of marines right next door and meet with a group of marines passing by and act as if nothing happened.

YES, you can burn corpses but the corpses exist for a brief moment when the Thing kills the marines. I'm talking about a fighting scene RIGHT after it happened. Before, you could be clueless that people died merely seconds ago when you enter a room. Now you are given the burning of molotovs, blood stains everywhere, and a corpse or two. You'd be blind if you didn't know someone fought there.

When we speak deception, players couldn't pull off deception for a long time. They weren't deceiving the whole game. The whole point was about those small moments when players hesitate where deception became so threatening.

But then again, you never had experience with this so I don't know why you are coming so aggressive when you don't even have much say in it. If YOALL said your points I'd consider it, but coming from you don't convince me much.

The point is not to banish the buildings and butt-fuck the game back to it's alpha stage. It's merely thinking about what you can change in the future for the better of the game.

"What are you even talking about? You seem to think there is a fine line between A) Deception, B) Buildings, C) Hunting down thing. In the game's current state you are still hunting down the Thing. In fact, its extremely similar considering everyone is still in one big group (same as what you want). The only difference is you are moving to complete and objective sometimes. Even then, the time spent on making something work means absolutely nothing. Look at the points system. Its a ruin of terrible design but the points system has been going forever."

Let me ask you the question in reverse. What are YOU even talking about? Are you telling me that B) Buildings are promoting A) Deception or some how B) Buildings help you C) Hunt thing down?

In the game's current state no shit you are hunting down the Thing to kill it. My point is that the chasing mechanic is flawed as it is completely one-sided for the Thing. Thing has faster default speed, can use locks to thwart marines stimming at it, and can burrow away. You cannot contain the Thing unless you are in a lucky position to lock him in. There is no tools for you. And any smart Thing will not put itself in a situation it will be locked in.

"In fact, its extremely similar considering everyone is still in one big group (same as what you want)."

No big group is not what I want, you are simply feeding words to my mouth.

And here you are admitting that buildings are not achieving what it was meant to do. Yes they make marines move, but they still stay in a ball. It was meant to split them.

Also, what purpose does that serve other than just make it easier for the Thing to win? What fun is there sitting and repairing? I would rather spend my time in game trying to unlock weapons or tools to ultimately hunt/murder the Thing rather than wait for a fucking evac and try to fix the god damn lights. It's boring. What can I say? Maybe you like it but that doesn't mean we can't look at the other side.

"Even then, the time spent on making something work means absolutely nothing. Look at the points system. Its a ruin of terrible design but the points system has been going forever."

Where the fuck are you trying to go with this? I never even mentioned points system and it's not even a good example. It's not like a mechanic that actually even influences the gameplay you are just wasting time with this.

ReeferFist wrote:throw a grenade at your teammates if its boring. that always spices things up

The only reason I "TK" was just stated by Reefer. But then others, *probe and zak* get pissed off because they die

We actually had a good game with Panda/Data where he turned me into a cow to point out that I needed to die, and we ended up winning the game anyways.
All admins aren't bad, its just this fucking high horse they get on that ruins the game. At this point, the only admin that does is Probe.
Pandemonium, Yoall, Willu, Data/Panda, and Perp are all good admins. I think that, for the most part, they would agree that moderation and no fucking pre-game teaming up to TK people is a viable way to spice up a game and make it more interesting.
I agree, the formula for the game gets repetitive and boring, but if the thing player is out in the wilderness and the guy who just lobbed a grenade into the main group falls into his grasps, and he transforms into this player to try and trick the others, well he is in for a surprise and has to act quick. Thus adding another dynamic.
I've also stated this, and I think it is a good rule to keep for anyone, preferably vet's who are trying to spice it up, to keep. Once you have seen the thing, and know for sure it isn't a group of other marines, you do not try and kill your ally's. Unlike the movie, only one of us is the thing. No infection, none of that.

That would make it interesting. Give a 10% when a marine dies to turn him into an infected thing player, way weaker, but give them an infested marine skin to transform into. No burrow, basically just a marine who can actively play for the Thing with no penalty. Maybe 40 health or something like that.

mah two cents

^^ it would have to be a weaker thing and not that mac daddy earth shifter at the end of the movie.

it could work. and theres some speculation that thing(S) will even turn and kill their own kind. 2 things hiding from eatchother you and your mate finally kill the thing on the evac only for him to morph into a fast little weak ling and gobble you up

Proteo wrote:The only reason I "TK" was just stated by Reefer. But then others, *probe and zak* get pissed off because they die ...

I think few sprinkles of TKing makes the game overall more interesting and stay true to its theme of paranoia.

However, there is no valid reason for players to TK without getting a penalty. Therefore, I think we can really use this idea of 'infection' where you are simply a regular marine who stands on the Thing's side.

From observing NightAxe and goodone always trying their butt off to cheat, I think one helper really does change the tide of the game.

Rather than Thing having a 'chance' to infect a player, I think we can experiment with a third role being added to the game. Simply, at the start, one player will be a designated 'TKer' whose job is to disrupt the marines.

They will be able to attack buildings and if they betray the Thing, the Thing can simply take over this underling and become its full self once more. Also, this role will not spawn if the Thing rating is too high for the Thing as he needs no help.

Pandemonium wrote:

Proteo wrote:The only reason I "TK" was just stated by Reefer. But then others, *probe and zak* get pissed off because they die ...

I think few sprinkles of TKing makes the game overall more interesting and stay true to its theme of paranoia.

However, there is no valid reason for players to TK without getting a penalty. Therefore, I think we can really use this idea of 'infection' where you are simply a regular marine who stands on the Thing's side.

From observing NightAxe and goodone always trying their butt off to cheat, I think one helper really does change the tide of the game.

Rather than Thing having a 'chance' to infect a player, I think we can experiment with a third role being added to the game. Simply, at the start, one player will be a designated 'TKer' whose job is to disrupt the marines.

They will be able to attack buildings and if they betray the Thing, the Thing can simply take over this underling and become its full self once more. Also, this role will not spawn if the Thing rating is too high for the Thing as he needs no help.

I like that. I think the person with either the second highest or highest should get an opt, just like opting for the thing. But maybe shouldn't know who the thing really is? It the movies it never seemed certain if the other infected knew about their brethren.
As for penalty, I liked getting 100 points knocked off for every TK. Even if it was a mistake, it made people think about doing it first. If you ever go negative, get a rank that shows that.
I do like ranking up, it's not a big priority but, I wouldn't like being ranked as a Cadet or Private again.

<disclaimer>
nostalgia factor at work here.
neither of you have played as long as me, I can remember when there were no radios and the doors were supply depots (and you could see when they opened and closed too)
</disclaimer>


Sorry probe I've gotta side with pande on this one

• I'd have to say that now there is practically no deception. Back then the only way you had a chance of winning as the thing was deception (I don't know how many people i managed to trick into going into the bottom left rape room with me on the original map).
  
• Also i think the evac timer hurts this aspect of play, as in order for deception to truly be effective you really need time in order for it to sink in and get under the marines skin.
  
• Right now the marines have a clear goal for winning (which is to get to the evac ship), this causes the phsycological attacks of the thing to 1. be less effective, and 2. be harder to actually pull off
  
• The old door bug (that i fixed), where you could see through the door and watch as your teammates died while you couldn't do anything (oh man was it satisfying to have happen as the thing)
  

But i will say this for the new system

• Buildings give the marines some objectives, this helped lower tking a bit
  
• Oxygen reduced camping although i probably need to increase the radius for it again and the rate at which it decreases. (on the non outer space stations, this is a measure of how bad they smell before they hurt themselves just by smelling each other )
  
• The options in weaponry are nice now, rather than having people tk for the flamethrower all the time.
  

The game has turned from a deception based game to essentially a (More fun) Cat Vs. Mouse ordeal.

I think that giving the marines goals would solve most of the issues.

EXAMPLES:

-Have the ability to create powerful gear/armor by going different locations and assembling it. (Based off of a Malum Ruina conception that works quite well)

-Some form of blood-testing. (Gives the marines an imperative to move around while adding complexity to the game, as if someone dies but have been blood tested before hand, it allows the Thing to decept the group.)

-Have random events occur: Random building fires forces all to leave/random power outages/delayed comms signal and have to fix it/storms forcing everyone inside buildings ETC. (Just something to change the maps predictability.)

___________________________________________________________________________________

That's a basic set of ideas. Some other miscellaneous ideas:

-Removed the damn control timer.
-Remove all maps and switch to one-two super maps that are highly variable to changes.
-Add supply caches instead of putting items on the ground.
-Allow players to choose their opening set-up (Excluding special items) so that each player is GUARENTEED certain self determined items and can obtain additional items laid across the map.

-Remove the Re-Fuel building and mix it with the generator by having the generator run on X amount of fuel that recharges, and recharging flamer takes out of that pool of fuel.


I mean come on guys, we aren't short for ideas here, we just need to work together and decide what we're using and what isn't. I agree that the game should be changed, but as a community we need to work together and decide in what direction we want that to be.

I think the control bar should be removed.

Datasick wrote:I think the control bar should be removed.

I think there should be an evac mode where the evac ship never comes

willuwontu wrote:

Datasick wrote:I think the control bar should be removed.

I think there should be an evac mode where the evac ship never comes

It's called very long XD

But Pande brings up some good points. Have the generator be something that constantly needs to be fueled up. Have fuel caches that randomly drop, are pinged, and either the players can go get it or the thing can. Let each fuel can fill it up, and have light last for 4mins. Have a drop every 3 mins.

As for loadouts, let marines pick like 2 things I.E.
2 grenades
2 moltovs
1 grenade, 1 moltov
1 *special* item like goggles or armor
But if you did that, don't have any drops, or let the drops start like 7-10mins into a game. That way, you can pickup dead players items, but the thing wouldn't have to worry about constant drops until that far into the game when they can really help.

I agree, remove the control bar. Or, make it a helluva lot longer and regen a lot faster, or instantly every time you kill a marine.

I like the different maps, but maybe have something like parasite where you can get on a shuttle from Ragnov to get down to Sahara or Aquilon or one of those. Lets say Ragnov is the main map, always picked, but players can choose one of the others as well. If there is no timer, it makes it worthwhile to have that big of a map. Longer games. Also, have the ability to turn the spaceship or shuttles off so you can trap marine on the planet, or even the thing, for a short time at least.

Idk about creating armors or that kind of thing. What about the ability to combine? Like combining the armor with the goggles, or perhaps adding a new item like boots that give you a speed bonus, and being able to combine it with the armor so that you can walk/run at normal speeds but have the armor boost? Only let this happen after 10mins as well.
Perhaps we give the thing the ability to "evolve" or grow stronger throughout the game, giving it like 3 or 4 levels, and stats like strength or speed, maybe even an ability that takes away the control bar?
I think we got some good stuff here

I do like the idea of having to have the marines ferry the flamethrower between the generator and the fuel station in order to keep the station powered.

Pandemonium wrote:I never even mentioned points system and it's not even a good example. It's not like a mechanic that actually even influences the gameplay you are just wasting time with this.

Too lazy to respond to the rest of the post but I laughed out loud at this. You do realize that the points system is the whole point of playing the game for players who want to actually feel like they are working towards something. Which is the epitome of game design. You want players to feel like their actions are meaningful.

I don't know how many people i managed to trick into going into the bottom left rape room with me on the original map


Only inexperienced players were able to be tricked into rape rooms. Unless you are telling me that experienced players were more stupid back then, the same applies to the present. Only new/inexperienced players are able to be tricked at the current stage of the game. (Unless you know how to be good at deception) I don't see a difference. The only difference is you are being tricked into a room alone to die vs. tricked into letting someone into your group in which you will die. 


Also i think the evac timer hurts this aspect of play, as in order for deception to truly be effective you really need time in order for it to sink in and get under the marines skin. 



I'll give you that. Deception at the moment isn't as much a WTF moment as it used to be. But games also don't take an hour of boring 'waiting for the Thing to reveal himself' shit.


The old door bug (that i fixed), where you could see through the door and watch as your teammates died while you couldn't do anything (oh man was it satisfying to have happen as the thing)



I hate to be the guy to break it to you... But that bug is still in the game... LOL. Its not as big as it used to be, but you can still occasionally see the Thing's attack animations through the door (and throw).


Oxygen reduced camping although i probably need to increase the radius for it again and the rate at which it decreases. (on the non outer space stations, this is a measure of how bad they smell before they hurt themselves just by smelling each other  


I would love to see some sort of oxygen reworking (like the building idea) or even a flat buff. However, might mean marines need some sort of compensation. 


I'd have to say that now there is practically no deception. 


Yup. But the number of Things that try and use deception are.... 1, I guess? That would be me. Love to see more of you guys try see. Its not that hard with the Gen because they can't see you kill someone and then run into the group, and other notable things. Consume makes it easy to kill someone, eat them to get full health and join the group without them noticing.

Perplexate wrote:The game has turned from a deception based game to essentially a (More fun) Cat Vs. Mouse ordeal.

I think that giving the marines goals would solve most of the issues.

EXAMPLES:

-Have the ability to create powerful gear/armor by going different locations and assembling it. (Based off of a Malum Ruina conception that works quite well)

-Some form of blood-testing. (Gives the marines an imperative to move around while adding complexity to the game, as if someone dies but have been blood tested before hand, it allows the Thing to decept the group.)

-Have random events occur: Random building fires forces all to leave/random power outages/delayed comms signal and have to fix it/storms forcing everyone inside buildings ETC. (Just something to change the maps predictability.)

___________________________________________________________________________________

That's a basic set of ideas. Some other miscellaneous ideas:

-Removed the damn control timer.
-Remove all maps and switch to one-two super maps that are highly variable to changes.
-Add supply caches instead of putting items on the ground.
-Allow players to choose their opening set-up (Excluding special items) so that each player is GUARENTEED certain self determined items and can obtain additional items laid across the map.

-Remove the Re-Fuel building and mix it with the generator by having the generator run on X amount of fuel that recharges, and recharging flamer takes out of that pool of fuel.


I mean come on guys, we aren't short for ideas here, we just need to work together and decide what we're using and what isn't. I agree that the game should be changed, but as a community we need to work together and decide in what direction we want that to be.

Allow players to choose their opening set-up (Excluding special items) so that each player is GUARENTEED certain self determined items and can obtain additional items laid across the map.

You perfect son of a bitch.
That's a fantastic progression idea. When you level up far enough, you unlock customization for your start-game inventory.
It affects direct gameplay, it allows us to hook newer players by making them feel like they are accomplishing something, gives long-term players something to work to and it allows you to personalize.

Leveling up would actually MEAN something really important, but even more importantly, it would promote playing the game longer. 

NOTE: The Thing would not spawn with his loadout

Here's an idea for a progression tree, with of course some reworking needing to be done:

Level 5 Marine:    Unlock 1st Inventory Slot
Level 5 Marine:    Unlock Medkit (x1) for use in Inventory Slot
Level 15 Marine:  Unlock Molotov (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 20 Marine:  Unlock 2nd Inventory Slot

Level 30 Marine:  Unlock Radio (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 40 Marine:  Unlock Wrench (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 45 Marine:  Unlock 3rd Inventory Slot

Level 55 Marine:  Unlock Grenade (x1) for use in Inventory Slot 

Level 65 Marine:  Unlock Medkit (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 70 Marine:  Unlock 4th Inventory Slot

Level 75 Marine:  Unlock Molotov (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 80 Marine:  Unlock Grenade (x1) for use in Inventory Slot

Level 90 Marine:  Unlock Thermal Goggles (x1) for use in Inventory Slot.

Level 100 marine:Unlock Medkit (x2) for Inventory Slot, Unlock Molotov (x2) for Inventory Slot, Unlock Riot Shield for Inventory Slot

Perhaps loadout items are soul-bound and may not be dropped, only used. You therefore cannot drop the riot shield, Radio etc, even upon death.
OR an alternative is Inventory Slots that have been designated to spawn with an item cannot be used for the rest of the round. So for example, the moment you use the medkit in your medkit slot, you cannot pick up an item and use it in that slot. That slot is dead. (That way you have a dynamic choice to make when spawning in an item.


Level 100 achievement total: 4 Medkits available, 4 Molotovs available, 2 Grenades available, 1 Thermal Goggles Available, 1 Riot Shield Available, 1 Wrench available, 1 Radio Available, and 4 slots available. 

Of course item spawns would need reworking and a possibility of nerfs to certain items.

---------------------------------------------------------

-Flame needs some sort of buff to importance. 
-Frk Building needs removal or reworking or something desperately

What if the flame regen not only helps nearby players but VERY SLOWLY regenerates the flame's fuel no matter where it is on the map? (As long as the building is alive) Then you aren't required to constantly travel back and forth with the low amount of fuel held by flame, but its still great building to repair and run because you don't need to camp it anymore. You could also have someone without flame go and heal it while leaving flamer at comms or something like a supply run almost. (Flame travelling is EZ to kill)

This is going way to complex please no? Also items should spawn after half of the evacuation time is gone. Because it's not fun to play if it's a long game and you used up all of your items.

It's also not fun to play when 4 LT and up have 3 grenades each in their inventory.
I think the amount of items is fine for the length of 90% of games. It would be cool to start off with maybe, at max, 1 grenade. That way, you don't feel totally fucked when thing finds you in aquilon, out in the snow.

Probe wrote:I hate to be the guy to break it to you... But that bug is still in the game... LOL. Its not as big as it used to be, but you can still occasionally see the Thing's attack animations through the door (and throw).

That was on purpose. I remember tweaking some fields in the Thing's unit data which made it visible in fog for 0.1 seconds if it did its attack.

I did that trying to achieve some eerieness but now that I look back, Thing can't deceive properly with it on.

I can revert the field data if people agree that it should be removed.

Hey Probe, don't forget that opting to spawn with an item means you have to spend some VicPoint$$$

Level 3 Unlock medkit / Unlock low tier for 1st slot
Level 6 Unlock wrench
Level 10 Unlock molotov / Unlock mid tier for 1st slot
Level 15 Unlock radio
Level 21 Unlock medkit 2x / Unlock low tier for 2nd slot
Level 33 Unlock molotov 2x / Unlock mid tier for 2nd slot
Level 40 Unlock grenade / Unlock high tier for 1st slot

Low Tier
Medkit = 50VP
Wrench = 80VP

Mid Tier
Molotov = 150VP
Radio = 250VP

High Tier
Grenade = 500VP

Oh, and getting TK'd without spending your item will revoke the purchase. (which makes permanent items more expensive (unless you drop it!))

Thing Bidding: Once there are other ways to spend VP, you can also start bidding for Thing opt.

If Thing opting doesn't pick you, if your bid is highest, you get to be Thing.

It begs the question: what if a pro can spend what a newb would spend for half his VP?

Simple: if it doesn't work well, why not just consider how many Thing points the poorer player has.

Vicboy wrote:

Probe wrote:I hate to be the guy to break it to you... But that bug is still in the game... LOL. Its not as big as it used to be, but you can still occasionally see the Thing's attack animations through the door (and throw).

That was on purpose. I remember tweaking some fields in the Thing's unit data which made it visible in fog for 0.1 seconds if it did its attack.

I did that trying to achieve some eerieness but now that I look back, Thing can't deceive properly with it on.

I can revert the field data if people agree that it should be removed.

That would be really nice if you could fix that. It kind of ruins things because if you know what you are doing, you can see which side of the Thing the marine is dying on. If its on the close side to the door, the marine is 90% chance of being dead. If the throw is on the far side, there is a 25% chance (approx) that he is dead.

Really ruins it being able to pretty much tell dependent on their rank whether they will live and run away or not.

Vicboy wrote:Hey Probe, don't forget that opting to spawn with an item means you have to spend some VicPoint$$$

Level 3 Unlock medkit / Unlock low tier for 1st slot
Level 6 Unlock wrench
Level 10 Unlock molotov / Unlock mid tier for 1st slot
Level 15 Unlock radio
Level 21 Unlock medkit 2x / Unlock low tier for 2nd slot
Level 33 Unlock molotov 2x / Unlock mid tier for 2nd slot
Level 40 Unlock grenade / Unlock high tier for 1st slot

Low Tier
Medkit = 50VP
Wrench = 80VP

Mid Tier
Molotov = 150VP
Radio = 250VP

High Tier
Grenade = 500VP

Oh, and getting TK'd without spending your item will revoke the purchase. (which makes permanent items more expensive (unless you drop it!))

Well, I still haven't finished posting my points thread. I thought about Vicpoints but wasn't sure exactly where I think the game should lean towards with a points sytem. Items being unlockable through levelling up and spending Vicpoints would be the first major market in the game. Portraits are cool, but aren't that big. The moment we put Vicpoints as the currency for items, the harder it is to change Vicpoints' function afterwards.

The levelling system, regardless, IS going to be reworked. I will find a way to hack into your brain if you refuse. Its a when, not an if, because it is so important to the game. So when the leveling system is reworked to more openly display a level up, it will also allow you to see when you unlock something and what is next to be unlocked. This makes it easy to make a more 'confusing' tech tree as the players will be able to directly see when and what you unlock whenever. 

So I was thinking. What if you have a separate "inventory/backpack" that holds the items you buy from the store. In the lobby, you can move items from your "backpack" or whatever to your starting loadout. The following includes disposable starting items. You, for instance, can buy a medkit for however much money, but once you spawn with it in a game, its gone forever. (Then you can buy other items) This means that if you don't have many vicpoints, you can save up items in your "backpack" so that you can spawn with all 4 items in one game of your choosing instead of being forced to use them the moment you buy them.

I noticed something important. By using clever tooltip placement in the "backpack" and "market", we can essentially teach players what the items do instead of using a tutorial. When (not if) we change it so the market is much bigger and easier to access, players will just need to mouse over an item to see what it does in the shop (Maybe a "?" button near each item?) Makes it so newer players understand better.

Also, Vic, you seem to underestimate the severe importance of wrenches. I would argue easily that the radio is less important than the wrench, even the molotov in some cases. Molotov is below wrench to provide players with damage dealing items earlier to allow them to learn the ins and outs as well. Please note that having lots of slots available for purchased items earlier IS NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU STILL NEED TO PURCHASE ITEMS WITH LIMITED VP.

Low Tier:
Medkits 
Radio


Medium Tier:
Molotov 
Wrench


High Tier:
Grenade


Extreme Tier:
Thermal Goggles




Level 5  Marine:   Unlock First Inventory Space (Low Tier), Unlock Medkit Purchasing
Level 10 Marine:  Unlock Radio Purchasing

Level 15 Marine:  Unlock First Inventory Space (Medium Tier), Unlock Molotov Purchasing

Level 20 Marine:  Unlock Wrench Purchasing 

Level 25 Marine:  Unlock First Inventory Space (High Tier), Unlock Grenade Purchasing

Level 30 Marine:  Unlock Second Inventory Space (Low Tier)

Level 35 Marine:  Unlock Second Inventory Space (Medium Tier)
Level 40 Marine:  Unlock Second Inventory Space (High Tier)

Level 45 Marine:  Unlock Third Inventory Space (Low Tier)

Level 50 Marine:  Unlock Third Inventory Space (Medium Tier)

Level 55 Marine:  Unlock Third Inventory Space (High Tier)

Level 60 Marine:  Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (Low Tier)

Level 65 Marine:  Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (Medium Tier)

Level 70 Marine:  Unlock Fourth Inventory Space (High Tier)
Level 75 Marine:  Unlock All Inventory Space (Extreme Tier), Unlock Goggles Purchasing


Market Costs:


Medkit:      50   VP
Radio:        100 VP
Molotov:    150 VP
Wrench:    150 VP
Grenade:   400 VP
Goggles:    1000VP
(Subject to change)


I'm considering the following major changes:

A) Removing High Tier for 3rd and 4rth slots so that you can't just save up for 4 grenades with 2 other marines and have like 12 nades to go YOLO with.

B) Wipe everyone's VP statistics if they over a certain amount so that people like FRK don't have an endless supply of grenades.

You need to do it so that the leveling is closer. I've been playing for a while now and am still only a Colonel. By this point, IDGAF about inventory and unlocking shit. And most cadets/marines take a long time to get even to level 10.
Take all the "Unlocks" you have and put them between level 1-40. That will make it so people actually see an end in sight. After that, maybe have unlocks every 5 or 10 levels for things like perks? An extra 20% marine points or 15% thing points if you win. Or 20% extra vic points, etc.

Proteo wrote:You need to do it so that the leveling is closer. I've been playing for a while now and am still only a Colonel. By this point, IDGAF about inventory and unlocking shit. And most cadets/marines take a long time to get even to level 10.
Take all the "Unlocks" you have and put them between level 1-40. That will make it so people actually see an end in sight. After that, maybe have unlocks every 5 or 10 levels for things like perks? An extra 20% marine points or 15% thing points if you win. Or 20% extra vic points, etc.

Pfft, someone just wants his grenade unlock already.

Vicboy wrote:

Pfft, someone just wants his grenade unlock already.

Hey I don't mind, just make leveling up not take as long as it does/as many points. Even Reefer is barely past 50+ and his stats reset months ago

I actually agree with Proteo. I'm not even level 75 yet and I've played a lot and even went on a straight-binge for 2 weeks straight. That shouldn't happen. However, 40 is too low. 50 I think is where I want to have the soft cap. 
Perhaps 60 if we push it for grenade or for something extra like goggles or a custom message or something. 

I'm going to post all of the things Vic and Willu need to do to the points system right now, so I'm going to include this within the post since it relates directly.

EDIT: The leveling system can just require less XP between levels. Don't need to rework this.

Why not institute a new type of points called 'IP' (Item Points) which you can spend on your loadout and the more you level up the more 'IP' you obtain allowing you to get more and better items to spawn with.

EDIT: The leveling system can just require less XP between levels. Don't need to rework this.

That'd work.

Why not institute a new type of points called 'IP' (Item Points) which you can spend on your loadout and the more you level up the more 'IP' you obtain allowing you to get more and better items to spawn with.

That too

Proteo wrote:

Why not institute a new type of points called 'IP' (Item Points) which you can spend on your loadout and the more you level up the more 'IP' you obtain allowing you to get more and better items to spawn with.

That too

I made a more comprehensive evaluation of this topic in the other thread.

TLDR for days

yes, i also think it is a good idea to add rockets